I thought that how we have talked about how the weather relates to the mood of the story. I think it really shows in this chapter after nick talks to wolfshiem the weather turns bad and starts raining.
why do you think it took two years for Nick to talk about this? I feel he just wanted it to get past him before he started commenting on the happenings of Gatsby's funeral
Tyler if the weather is a symbol of what is happening, what does it mean when owl eyes said it was good for a dead man to get rained on? the poor weather usually means bad not luck.
With the inner circles discussion, I believe also that he is happier and caring more now that Gatsby is dead. I believe this because he now is worrying about his own thing and not about the rumors or anything that was said.
Do you think Gatsby father is proud of of Gatsby and what he did?Do you think that Nick is disappointed in the way Gatsby Died and that no one really knew him?Do you think that Gatsby Got the American Dream?
On page 174 the man with owl-eyed glasses shows up again, and seems to be the only person that returned when Gatsby died. I agree with the inner circle, I think that this man is similar to the eye's of TJ Eckleburg. I almost seems like this man was supposed to be like Gatsby's angel watching over him.
Tyler- . Throughout this whole story the wheather has related ot the mood of the story. Like when Daisy and Gatsby met again it started raining when Daisy cried. This also related to what you said about wolfshiem and nick talking but the mood must be down since Gatsby is dead.
I agree with Tyler. I think as the story starts out it's the begging of summer and everything is happy. But as the story progresses the weather begins to change like the mood of the story, like Gatsby’s relationship with Daisy.
Gatsbys dad siad that he hasnt seen him in two years i think Gatsby changed alot in those two years because i dont see how his dad could be so proud of him if he knew gatsby before he died.
Hunter, yes he is proud of his son. Who couldn't be. It seamed as though he didn't know how Gatsby got his money but he loved his son and would be proud of what his son did. Proud of his material maybe because they show a persons standing in society.
Earl- I believe he waited to years becuase he needed time to get over it all. If he were to have talked about it earlier, he might have told it a little differently than rather letting it all set in first before he spoke about it.
Hubter, I do not beleive that he acheived the american dream, because his dream was to have Daisy and he did not get o his goal.
Why you think people are so interested in Gatsby now that hes dead?I think its human nature to want to see rich people's demise.
I agree with tyler s, through out the entire story the weather has been portreying the moods and emotions of the chracters in the moment. In chapter 7 when Wilsons wife was hit by Daisy, the weather felt towards the reader as foggy and revealed to my that it is the unknown thats going to happen next. In this chapter During the funeral for Gatsby the weather appeared to me as sad and gloomy like the characters there.
HunterGatsbys father loved him. he was proud that his son rose up and became successful and rich. Mr. Gatz probably doesn't know about Gatsbys shady dealings. All he sees is an intelligent good son.
Do you think that Gatsby had regrets about his life?Do you think he regrets spending all of his time on Daisy?I think that Gatsby did not regret spending his life the way he did because Daisy is what made him happy, so as he got closer to Daisy he was happier and he wanted to always spend more time with her.
Even though Daisy was faking it the whole time, I still believe she still cared for Gatsby a little. I understand that she cares about the money and not being invovled with the rumors, but she obviously had to have cared some for him.
Nate I think people are more uninterested now that he is dead because he cant provide anything for them. If he's dead there won't be any parties and people just dont want to get involved in a mess for someone they were only using.
Ok so I have a few final thoughts on the book and the most current events. First why would Nick come to Gatsby's funeral if he is such a fair weather friend? Where did Tom and Daisy disappear to? Was it an attempt to hide Daisy's shame? (If she has any) and also there is a obvious distinction between East and West that is made very apparent in the end why wasn't it stressed throughout the entire story? What symbolism for the characters relationships and backgrounds does this highlight? Any thoughts?
I think that the problem of the American dream that it is closely related to the problem of how to deal with the past.
Do you think that Gatsby could've foresaw the very few number of people that showed up to his private funeral? It seems almost as if he was content with not having that many friends that he liked not having people close to him kind of like what he did at his parties
Nate, because dead people can be more interesting than when they were alive. Gatsby was already a mysterious kinda shady guy and now that he is dead, and all his secrets die with him, he gets even more attention because of this. Its kinda like how everyone is all conspiracy on Kennedy killing and are now obsessed with him.
Nate I agree with you, nobody cares about Gatsby until he is dead. He pretty much stayed out of peoples lives cause of how he threw the parties. His secretive life led to people being curious, and wondering what had happened to him.
No I do not think any one achieved the American in this book, execpt Daisy and Jordan. Both of them made choices that would only be best for them, I do not think Daisy even reliezed she killed Myrtle, she never came up and confessed or admitted, Tom took her out of town to keep her out of trouble.
NateIts another scandelous thing for people to gossip about. Like Jordan, people are interested in scandelous rumors. they wnat to be in on the drama of someone elses life.
I agree with Willie, i think that the rain symbolizes a change in the mood of the story. I think that the rain symbolizes loss or failure. When it rains when Gatsby first meets Daisy again, Gatsby looses his dream because Daisy can never live up to his dream. When Wholfshiem decides not to go to the funeral is shows that Gatsby has lost his friends. And it rains at his funeral because Gatsby has lost his life.
Nate-Well people are only interested or even notice something till its gone and then now when Gatsby is died people are interested, Not human nature to see rich people die because he was poor and became rich
keven- i agree with you about gatsby not regreting spending his life trying to get daisy because i dont think gatsby would have gotten to were he was without that dream. He might have never got into the shaddy stuff, but without the shaddy stuff he wouldnt have had money
I think that Nick is a reliable narrator because he relays the important information very well and in chapter 9 we see he has some very good thoughts and feelings too.
Earl I think Gatsby would only care if Daisy would be there kind of like at his partys and how he used them to get close to Daisy.
Kevin- I think Gatsby did regret that he did not get Daisy but he couldn't really do anything about that. His whole life was spent trying to catch Daisy so i don't think he regret that but maybe he regrets going to war because she became in love with Tom during that time. He did become very rich and lived a normal lifestyle so I dont think he regreted that.
-NateI don't think it is human nature. I think the just wanted to know what happened to Gatsby.
Tom just left to keep daisy away from gatsby because tom told Mr. Wilson about Gatsby so he knows that when Mr. Wilson finds Gatsby and if Daisy is there he could also kill her I believe
Nate-But weren't people already interested in him because he was so well known? Also, I agree that Gatsby was more interesting because people will give attention to someone who was that rich and powerful when they die.
Answering the question from the leaders about " does anyone in the story achieve the American dream?"I believe that no one in the story achieved the American dream, because she realized that Tom doesn't love her and that Gatsby truely loved her. The American dream through my eyes is true happiness with not just materialistic goods, but the love from the people around you. As well as riches and happiness. I believe that no one has achieved either of them at the same time but they have achieved one.
Earl, i agree with you. Know one cares about Gatsby. They were using him for fun and it turns out that because of this, Gatsby has no friends. I think that he was aware of this because he always stood back during his parties. And upon becoming aware of this, he would have figured out no friend could mean that no one would show up.
Do you think Gatsby could tell at all that Daisy wasnt really there for him in the sense of even truely liking him? I feel like even though he lost her once based off of having no money I think this time he thought she was really there for him because of how well she was faking it.
Kevin I agree with you showing that he regreted chasing daisy the whole time. He probably beleives that he never acheived the American Dream, because e wasted it chasing Daisy.
BrettGI dont think anyone acheived the american dream. Daisy didn't get with Gatsby, she runs away with an unfaithful husband who says he loves her. The dream is something everyone tries to reach but they either come up too short or in a worse state then they started in, like Gatsby.
I think that Daisy skipping town and disappearing after killing Myrtle is an example of how the rich seem to live without consequences. I think that it is this lack of responsibility and lack of caring that gets in the way of achieving the American Dream. If they are constantly running away from consequences then they never have time to achieve anything.
No one ever commented on how the west and east corrolated within the story but now that we've read this chapter we see now how it is intertwined within the story, Do you think in a way that the Great Gatsby could be western people going back to their roots and hating it?
I think Fitzgerald related the moon to the American dream because anyone living that lifestlye we saw in the book will never achieve the American dream, with no morals, responsibility or feeling for others.
Brianna, I feel like Gatsy was ignorant to how Daisy didn't truly care for him he was happy that she was even paying attention to hime and it was clear that she never cared cause she never went to his funeral.
I dont think that Daisy is very concerned with killing myrtle, i think she leaves town just to avoid consequences, and not because of guilt.
Davis I agree with your statement showing how that the Anerican Dream is to acheive full happiness, and through out the story nobody acheived it.
In the book White represents purity. And Daisy is refered to as white in the story. I believe that Daisy has been labled as white as her color because she seems pure on the outside but deep down is yellow like unknowing and dangerous.
Similar to what emily said, Daisy thought she didn't have to suffer for what she did. Maybe for more then one reason. She thought that Tom was supposed to protect her and he took her away because they could afford it.
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Brianna-I agree with you that Daisy probably didnt care about Gatsby because when Gatsby went to war Daisy found Tom and she faked loving him so she could have his money. So she has the practice to make someone believe that she loves them.
Earl, that is a very good point. It is hard for eastern people to move west but just about impossible for westerners to move east. Nick even commits in the book about the lesser values of the eastern peoples. I think Fitzgerald, in part, wrote this book to make a poke of eastern people. Maybe he figured out that western people are better than easterners and that he was angry with the east, so he took it out in his writing.
I agree with both Cortez and Earl. Gatsby and the others only knew each other from the parties Gatsby had, to get Daisy to him. The people wanted a place for fun and basically an escape of there regular life so found it by going and enjoying there times at parties. I think Gatsby wouldnt really care that not many people came to the funeral, because even when he had the parties he never really even knew the people there to begin with. He might be a little upset because he would know they never really cared about going to the parties to get to know him but to just have some fun.
Brett- i disagree, i think most of the rich people have reached the american dream, but then people like Tom are not content with it and go out and test their luck like by cheating on daisy.
My thoughts on Daisy are that she is a narcissistic malicious woman who will do anything to be on top. She sees Tom and Gatsby the same; they are tools to get her what she wants. I think Tom knows this and that is why he had an affair with Myrtle he knew he was just her husband by law not by emotional or romantic bonds. Gatsby however didn't; he honestly loved her and she broke his heart and was ultimately his greatest downfall. The inner circle just mentioned what preys on Gatsby and I wholeheartedly believe that it was Daisy and her motives.
Is the Owl eyes man some how related to Dr. Eckleburg and both of their glasses?
To the question of "who achieved the American Dream?"I think Daisy achieved the american dream because she had a boy friend, and the money and a good life but she lost some of it when Gatsby dies. Tom hasn't achieved the American Dream but I think he will take what he learned and Achieve it himself.
Earl I think the West has been seen as a land of promise and possibility which is the very emblem of American ideals.
Brianna B-Well I think that Daisy only really talked to Gatsby and was with him just because she was swept up in the past she was re-introduce by nick off guard and was just fooling around then when it came down to it she really had no Emotion towards her even though she thought and felt nothing or maybe she used him to blame for the crime and Gatsby was just so swept up repeating the past and the American Dream he didn't see how she really felt.
Brianna- I think that Daisy did like Gatbsy but it was just too late and she could not leave Tom. She had to be with someone thats why she left Gatsby for Tom during the war. She came to Gatbys parties and she probably came to see Gatsby but he never talked to her he just admired her from afar. In the end though Gatsby looked foolish for trying so hard to get her.
I agree with you Cortez I think Fitzgerald was poking fun at the eastern lifestyle how they are all rich and bored and thrive off of gossip and such.
Tyler-Could Tom having an affair be part of "his" american dream though?
WillieIf the west is the land of promise and possibility, why did gatsby come east? It would seem like the opposite of what he wanted to do. Maybe it is opposite in this story. Gatsby tried to find riches and happiness and all he got was a bullet. If he had stayed in the west, maybe he would have had a better life.
brett, I thnk they could be connected because the eyes of T.J. Eckleburg watch over the Valley of ashes which is a slum and gloomy place and Owl eyes maybe "watches over" Gatsby at his worst time. Maybe the glasses symbolize watching and inspecting the bad.
I think the midwest represents the opposite of the people in the east who are achieve the american dream
Sean, in a way it could be argued that Tom has achieved the American Dream. He basically has everything. He is ubber rich, has great influence, a family and of course for him, lot of affairs. He basically has everything that the American Dream stands for.
With the discussion question, I think Nick liked the West more than the East because of how different they acted. Not caring as much about parties and rumors and basically fake people in the end.
Kevin- thats true, i guess everyone has a different american dream and Tom's included having a affair
The "foul dust," I think, was the people around Gatsby. Daisy, who used him, was the worst about it, I think. She used him as a martyr for her crime, and she had the nerve to skip town with Tom, who doesn't even love her. It's kind of sad, her sheer lack of humanity. She just doesn't care. I really find it sad how wholly Gatsby believed in his dream, only to have the main part of it just... leave him for death. Tom sealed his coffin, in my opinion. He told George "who the killer was," and absolutely gaurenteed Gatsby's death. It's disgusting. I seriously dislike the Buchanons.
Kevin-Yes i think Toms american dream is to do whatever he wants, including sleeping with whoever he wants. This era had a lot of people who had no concious what so ever.
Grace I agree because it seems to me that she only cares about herself and her needs. Like back in chapter 7 or 8 were she ignores her baby so she can talk to Gatsby. And how Gatsby basically laid down his life for and took the blame for Mertlyes death, and the only way she can repay him is by not showing up to his funeral.
-CortezI do agree with that statement. do you think anyone else in the story has achieved the american dream?
I believe that the American dream is what inevitably killed Gatsby in the end because through Gatsby's eyes his American Dream didnt involve fame or money or any of the materialistic items he has in his home. I believe that Gatsby's American dream was Daisy and regaining her love back and nothing that had to do with materialistic items. In the end Gatsby tried to gain Daisy's love by taking the blame for hitting and killing Wilson's wife which unknowingly lead to his death by Wilsons hands.
Earl I think that this defiantly could be people disliking their past or maybe just the past in general. On page 176 it says, "Tom and Gatsby, Daisy and Jordan and I, were all westerners, and perhaps we possessed some deficiency in common which made us subtly unadaptable to Eastern life." I think that Fitzgerald is commenting on the roaring 20's because the culture at this time was such a rebellion against the past and everything they had known. I think the west could be the new and when they try and revisit the old, or live in the east, it isn't right because the old culture and the new mindset doesn't work together. I think that the people of this time didn't like their past and that is why there was such a rebellion.
Answering the question Jacob just asked in the inner circle, yes I think money keeps people from maturing because people who have a lot of money think they can have whatever they want and thats a child like metality that no one will ever say no to you and youll never have to work hard.
Earl- I actually commented on the East and West earlier but I'll elaborate. Although Willie mentioned the West as a land of promise and possibility with the American ideals I disagree. The West mainly was made up of honest hard working people with a focus on family; the East was more about parties and sneaking through the law. (mainly prohibition)
On page 186 Nick sees Tom again.Tom is described as alert and agressive. I think he is still trying to protect Daisy and himself from their pasts. He's afraid its going to come back and haunt them. But he still wont admit that what he did with myrtle, and setting Wilson on Gatsby was wrong. Shunting the blame onto someone else.
Jurim i disagree with you, the only reason gatsby got his money was for Daisy, Gatsby would not teach his kid how to get money but to get what he wants, and also if gatsby had a kid we would just inherit everything and be part of the old money
Do you think that Nicks change was realizing how much he hates Easterners. and along those lines do you think that that's why Nick said at the beginning of the book he said that he hated Gatsby maybe it was because Gatsby acted like an Eastern person
Sean, I agree with you,she had the life, and when Gatsby dies, she loses some of that lifem but it will only be fuflilled by Tom, because he still has so much to learn and master.
Brianna-I too believe that Nick liked the west more than the east because the people there have better morals and actually cares for one another. He probably felt empty in the east. Could the size of yard in the east represent how empty a person is?
I think Nick preferred the West, because there isn't that absolute lack of morality that you see in the east. He thinks of himself as a man of morals, so surrounding himself with people like Tom and Daisy and Jordan is a terrible idea. But there are exceptions, like Gatsby, who gained his money illegally but still has a sense of morals.
Why did F. Scott Fitgerald ended the book with the lines "So we beat on, boats against the current, Borne back ceaselessly into the past"
andy, even though Daisy lost the part of her life influenced by gatsby, Tom also lost Myrtle so he can focus more on Daisy and maybe both of the lives they lost can be replaced with eachother.
With the inner circle's question again, I think that money does keep people from maturing. This is becuase they get whatevewr they want whenever they want it. They arent needing to all the time work for everything they get. They dont need to wirry about getting through rough spots of time becuase they have the money to get them through it and make them happy for the time being.
Sean,everyone else in the book achieved parts of it. Daisy had a family and lots of money but she was not happy. Nick had made himself money and had meet many people that became his friends but never had a family. Same can be said for all the other characters. It's odd but it seams to me that Tom was the only person to achive, in a sense, "The American Dream."
I believe the weather getting colder is a large representaion of many factors. Mainly I believe that like spring to winter flowers grow and die and I believe that Gatsby was the man that brightened up Daisy's life and made her happy like the sun gives food to the flowers so they can grow, Gatsby gave food and drinks to help attract Daisy and help her come to like him and appreciate him. And as the seasons fall into winter flowers die like the feelings Daisy had for Gatsby.
Laura i agree that it was wrong for tom to blame everything on gatsby, but at that time wilson thought it was tom and tom truthfuly thought it was gatsby. he was just protecting his life.
Going off of what Davis said I think the American dream in most cases is impossible to achieve because everyone has different needs and wants, and some people like Gatsby only care about the small things not the larger more important things like happiness. And sometimes the happiness people seek will only make them happy for a little bit (it won't last forever).
I think that the Great Gatsby successfully captured the feelings of an era. The lifestyle characterizations and actions of the characters were pure genius. F scott Fitsgerald is a literary magician.
I feel like Jordan said she was engaged to someone after Nick broke up with her because she wants him to feel like he will regret doing it and now will never be able to get her back if she actually is engaged.
Laura- I agree Tom and Daisy defiantly did not care about killing myrtle. Tom is probably pretty glad that Gatsby is dead and now he doesnt have to worry about Daisy cheating or leaving him. Do you think if Gatsby would of been alive he would of have got Daisy back or would she still be just a tease to Gatsby.
I think with this last chapter we see exactly how much Nick cares for Gatsby. On page 164 he expresses a desire to tell Gatsby that everything is going to be okay, and that he'll take care of Gatsby. These are really telling actions.
I think that the reason money keeps you from maturing is because it never forces you to take responsibility for things. Because they don't have to work for things they don't value them because they can be replaced easily. I think that they then translate this to everything. So Tom thinks that he can just replace Daisy with Myrtle and not even think twice about it because he doesn't see the value in anything, even people. I think that Daisy is the same way because she seems to think that she can replace Tom with Gatsby, and that killing Myrtle really isn't even that big of a deal, because she doesn't value anything.
I think this book improved my understanding of a important age in american history. This was definately a great book to study for any age group.
-HunterI think that last line kind of means that the charaters keep fighting on towards the future even though they still live in the past.
HunterFitzgerald ended with "So we beat on, boats against the current, Borne back ceaselessly into the past" because that describes the story.The people trying to go against the current to get what they want, they remember the past and feel that it was better, then try to get back to it while still going forward.
SeanDo you think it kind raps up how Gatsby lived his life
Why do you think that Nick broke it off with Jordan?I feel like it was because she had been corrupted by the eastern ways and he didn't want any connection with that vile area any more.
Emily K-Ya thats what i think too.
Hunter- it's to show how hard people, like Gatsby, work to achieve their dreams, even though they keep getting pushed further and further back. They try so hard to achieve their dreams, even though it's almost futile.
Hunter-I think that F. Scott Fitzgerald ended the book with such powerful and vague words for the readers to take caution with their own lives. "So we beat on" seems to me to just say keep on going when the times get rough "boats against the current".. have you ever tried to sail against the current? It's hard. More times than not you can't move. "borne back ceaselessly into the past" borne relates to to give birth and that reminds me of sailing again so birthed back endlessly into the past just like Gatsby.
I thought it was interesting how when wilson found out myrtle was cheating on him he planned to take her away for a while, then when tom finds out daisy is cheating on him the next day he takes daisy away on a trip
I think the lesson of this book was that money and matereal possesions are not important. Its the people and experiences that make life worth living.
-HunterI think it does rap up Gatsby's life. he was working through his everyday life but he was living in a world of the past where he was in a relationship with Daisy.
Do you think that there's a significance with the Valley of ashes being west of the setting of this book, do you think it portrays how the eastern people see the west?
The whole money thing makes me think of Michel Jackson how he spent his money on ridiculous things ( disregard the fact that he was nuts ). I also think the reason why rich people have a hard time maturing is because they don’t have to work hard for it and people that have to work for their money know how to use it to best benefit themselves and others.
At the end of the book Nick says "(Gatsby) had come a long way to this blue lawn..." I think that the blue could symbolize death. Gatsby spent his whole life chasing a dream only to have it die and to end up dead himself, so he ended on this "blue lawn"
Final thoughts- money isn't everything! You can't force yourself to achieve one thing in life, you can have other goals. Money doesn't buy you friends, or the girl, it just gets you stuff. So there you go!
Do you think that Nick is going to appreciate Gatsby now that he is dead?-I think that he will appreciate Gatsby more because he learns more about Gatsby’s past and how he came to be. For example, when Gatsby’s father showed Nick Gatsby’s schedule and how from an early age, Gatsby was planning for his success. Now that Gatsby is gone, Nick tries to do what he thought what Gatsby would want.What do the owl eyes represent?-I think that the owl eyes might relate to the eyes that look over the wasteland. It seems that the man with the glasses was a person who was in the background of the parties and he watched everyone and how empty they seemed to be. He was the one who pointed out that the books in Gatsby’s library had content unlike most of Gatsby’s party guests.Does Gatsby’s father have resentment towards his son?-I don’t think that his father had any resentment towards him. His father shows Nick the picture that Gatsby sent to him. He also walks around Gatsby’s house in a dream-like state, overwhelmed by what Gatsby has achieved.Has anybody in this book reached their American dream?-I don’t think that anybody reached their American dream. Gatsby couldn’t get the girl in the end, Nick didn’t get Jordan, Daisy committed a horrible crime and s probably scarred for the rest of her life, and Tom has to live with the guilt that he lied to get Gatsby killed.What is the relation between Nick looking at the moon and Gatsby looking at the green light?-I think that they relate to their own American dreams. Gatsby’s was happiness with Daisy. Toms American dream is unknown. I think Fitzgerald is trying to tell us that everyone is looking in different directions towards their own dreams. Some might be hard to achieve, some might be relatively easy, some might be impossible to reach. Fitzgerald imposes the idea that yes, you can reach your dreams, but if you let outside influences pray you they might hold you back from succeeding.In what ways does money hold some of the main characters back?-I think that it made the old rich kind of immature because they don’t know what hard work is and what struggles are. They only know how to party and waste their inherited money. The new rich, like Gatsby know what to do to succeed and support themselves.Do you think Jordan is lying about being engaged?-I think that she was because it seemed that she was trying to protect herself from failure and disappointment. She was quick to tell Nick that she was already engaged after he broke up with her. I think she hasn’t been in a situation like this one before.